These kids now know the literal meaning of "shot down like a dog", courtesy of the government.
What the hell is wrong with this country?
This woman now knows the literal meaning of "Papieren, bitte", courtesy of the government. She's an American citizen, arrested and detained because the local po-po thought that she might be illegal. Held for 4 hours.
What the hell is wrong with this country?
This man - an American citizen, dammit - was arrested because he didn't have his birth certificate with him. WTF? Who the hell carries their birth certificate? (starts at around 2:20 in the video)
What the hell is wrong with this country?
In the wake of the bombing attempt in New York City's Times Square, Sens. Joe Lieberman (I-Conn.) and Scott Brown (R-Mass.) introduced a bill in the Senate Thursday to revoke the U.S. citizenship of suspected terrorists if the State Department finds they are affiliated with a foreign terrorist organization.WTF? REVOKE YOUR CITIZENSHIP? Because some government flunky suspects something?
What the hell is wrong with this country? What the hell is wrong with Scott Brown? I'll see you at the next election; I voted for you last time, and it won't happen again. Go back and re-read the oath of office you took, you sonofabitch. Then re-read the Constitution. Especially this bit:
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.Just because the politicians are a bunch of f**kups (vote 'em all out, every damn one of them), and just because some folks carry a badge doesn't make a damn bit of difference. Just because this pesky Constitution thingie makes things harder is too goddamn bad. If you don't like it, get into a different line of work.- Sixth Amendment
What the hell is wrong with this country?The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.- Fourth Amendment
This is not the country that I was raised in, that's for damn sure.
I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just: that his justice cannot sleep for ever.- Thomas Jefferson
14 comments:
Borepatch for President 2012!!!
Seems that representatives from every side are ignoring the Constitution. It's not that complicated. Read it.
Those cops...? The f*ck? Who can get up and get to the door in that kind of time? Also, shooting the dog? Are they trying to get bad publicity?
Jim
So, what are the alternatives? The problem is that immigration, particularly illegal immigration has been out of control for so long that we don't even know where to start to fix the problem.
Public officials are now scrambling to give the voters what they think the voters want. Which is not this sort of random harassment, but alas I think we'll see more of it as this sorts itself out.
My guess is that the both the politicians and the bureaucrats crapped themselves last week with the Times Square near bombing. They understand that the voters are furious with President Feckless and his terrorist friendly policies, so they are going to pressure the police to "do something".
I don't like it, but I think it's part of the realignment of thinking that should be going on.
WTF? REVOKE YOUR CITIZENSHIP? Because some government flunky suspects something?
I think you're jumping to conclusions, Borepatch. From further down the article you linked:
"In order to strip a person's citizenship under the bill, Rep. Jason Altmire (D-Pa.) said that the State Department would have to prove that the person has joined a foreign terrorist organization voluntarily and that he has an intent to renounce his rights to be an American."
That sounds like rather more evidence is needed than "some government flunky suspects something."
On top of that, two minutes of searching found these two rather important links. Here is the full text of the Lieberman-Brown bill. And here is the section of the US Code that it modifies. Note paragraph (b) at the bottom of the page. And bookmark the homepage of that Cornell website. It's a priceless resource for anyone who wants to know what the law actually says.
I don't know that I like this bill very much, because it seems to be rather thin on due process. But neither is it what you seem to think it is. As far as I can tell from the text, it does require some kind of provable overt act before a person's citizenship can be stripped.
I used to be staunchly in support of the police. I'm not anymore. They came to my house in full assault gear. I have five little kids. They demanded to know where my brother, who was living with me, was. (He must register his place of residence with the police.) Because he hadn't happened to be there the times they came looking for him before, they were now there to arrest him for.... not being there.
The police are idiots. I have a relative I love very much who is a cop, and sometimes he has a brain, and sometimes he doesn't. I'm sure there are very good cops out there, but I don't trust any of them anymore.
I supported the immigration law in Arizona, but it was with the understanding that they had to have broken some other law in order to be questioned. It is gestapo no apology bullshit like we see here that gets my blood boiling. If I had been the dog owner in the first video, I would have demanded in court to kill any pets of the officers that raided my house.
TOTWTYTR, I don't know what the solution is. I do know that I don't trust our spineless politicians as far as I can throw them. I also know that this is not the country I grew up in.
Wolfwalker, IANAL, but there's a post on this over at Volokh. I do think that it's an exceptionally bad idea to let the government strip people of their citizenship, for any reason whatsoever. I doubt that they will be able to resist applying that more broadly than this.
Ross, I hope that the police are caught in a no-win situation, created by the spineless politicians. I hope this, because the only alternative is that they like the arbitrary power, which is an ugly thought.
Borepatch,
I do think that it's an exceptionally bad idea to let the government strip people of their citizenship, for any reason whatsoever.
I don't entirely agree. I think a natural-born citizen should be a citizen forever. But a naturalized citizen is a different matter. For them, citizenship is a privilege that they were given, and one that can be taken away if they show they didn't deserve it. But only as one of the punishments after a proper trial in which the individual is found guilty of specific charges.
Anyway, good idea or bad idea, it's in the Constitution. Article I, Section 8, clause 4: [The Congress shall have power to] "establish a uniform rule of naturalization..." As long as it applies equally to all citizens, it's constitutional.
I doubt that they will be able to resist applying that more broadly than this.
Section 1481 has been on the books in more or less its current form for several decades. Has it been misused in that period? I don't know.
Also, I notice something interesting: all of Title 8 seems to distinguish between nationality and citizenship. IANAL either, but the language seems somehow significant. Section 1481 is about loss of nationality. Does that include loss of citizenship? Everybody seems to assume that it does. But does the law, or case law, say that it does?
THe stops of American Citizens should reinforce the reason for these laws. It is impossible to tell the legals and citizens from the ilelgals. One would think thta they would be FOR the law, in an ttempt to push out the illegals, in orderthat their legitimacy might be bolstered.
Methinks that this is a false flag thing to delegitimize the law, inorder that other hispanic looking people will be able to flaunt the laws of the coubntry. Race over country. It's a form of racism. Wile no one wants to show their papers to any police officer, the fact is that you have to do so now, just for different reasons. To cash a check, perhaps to use a Credit card, when stopped for a traffic violation....these are instances where your government isued ID is need. And this is BEFORE the law is in effect, as is the case with the two incidents your videos document.
THe new law establishes that a legitimate government issued ID is defacto proof of citizenship.
And you fail to mention that the two incidents cited above are cases of ICE, not police officers, who made the mistake.
YMMV
Wolfwalker, I disagree. Strongly. This scenario seems all too plausible.
Also, read today's post about DeFord Bailey, and click through to his biography. Read the part about how he always made sure that he "didn't get out of his place" back in the Jim Crow south. I don't trust the Fed.Gov officials not to want that sort of thing.
Mr. B, how is the trucker's driver's license not a legitimate form of ID? Or are we to trust the police to use their discretion as to whether you get jailed or not, because you "answered the questions wrong"?
What seems to be lost here, and at least I take it as a major point is why is a SWAT team used to serve a warrant for marijuana possession? Do you really need the overwhelming force and numbers that could take on a 15 man army for a suburbanite, his wife and babies? Do you really need to shoot the dogs? I can see a SWAT team if you're going to serve papers at a major drug dealer's compound with armed guards everywhere, but for some bozo in a small suburban home?? SWAT teams are being overused to justify their existence.
What about mistakes, where they raid the wrong house? Like this: CNN Story There's hundreds of thousands of search engine hits for "botched SWAT raids".
If some guys show up at my door and bust it down while hollering they're the police, how do I know it's not a home invasion? You can buy jackets with POLICE on them in a thousand places. Especially when it's one of those 3AM catch you asleep raids? SWAT officers get shot in those instances, and unless you show me papers pretty darn fast, you're going to get shot, too - if I can wake up fast enough.
SWAT teams were originally started for hostage situations and high risk situations. Like all government programs, they expand to justify their expansion. Maybe someone of prominence, like Mayor Calvo, can help influence things.
While I deplore the need for this, again, I point out that the law in question is not implemented yet.
And we really don't know all the details of either incident, do we?
I agree tht the CDL should have been enough. But was it issued by a state that gives licenses to illegals? or was it an AZ license?
Also, 2 incidences do not make a pattern.
If we want to make this type of incident go away, especially for those who appear to look like those who might be illegal, then we need to enforce being legal. One would think that those people who fall into the above category who ARE legal should support the removal of those who are not. I know many folks who are of Hispanic descent (and legal immigrants) who support the removal of those who are not legal. It makes them look bad. And they don't like it. The rest of them put culture and race above their country.
The law as passed and signed is a decent start. It gives the police something to hang their intuition on, and helps them enforce the laws that are already there. Under the law, having a drivers license (or CDL) would be DeFacto proof of citizenship. That law is not yet implemented. Please pay attention to the timeline here.
I agree that this is not the best scenario. But the best scenario is one where everyone follows the social contract and follows the law. Until that time, we have to have imperfect solutions such as the AZ law.
Personally, I'd like to see HEAVY, serious, significant fines (like $10K/per day for each day/illegal employed by an employer. If there was a simple verification method (hmmm..using a scure internet site to verify that your ID matches what is in the government dtabase???? Nah, too easy) then such a fine system would work, and have teeth.
And with no work, then these folks would go home, at least a significant portion of them...taking their issues and problems for our society with them.
Of course, then the country of Mexico would go broke.
Having my citizenship stripped away may actually be a good thing. Then I can swim a river, jump a fence, and land in the America where I can get medicaid, welfare, free school lunch for the kids, no taxes, food stamps, and all sorts of goodies.
This scenario seems all too plausible.
That scenario has been plausible for years. You're only noticing it now?
A few relevant points:
1) Many of the provisions of the Patriot Act only gave the federal government powers that state and local cops already have.
2) It is literally no longer possible to live a normal life without breaking some federal, state, or local law. Multiple times. Every day.
3) As I said in my own comment on Tam's post, it's always been true that the only thing standing between us and the Abyss is the good intentions of those who enforce the law. Qui custodiet ipsos custodes? is not just a cliche.
The problem here is not the way the law is written. The problem is that you don't trust the government to apply the law intelligently. Which is an entirely different issue. If our federal law enforcement agencies were all staffed by people with the ethics of Leroy Gibbs and Lennie Briscoe, then you wouldn't find this law so worrying. But those admirable gentlemen are fiction, and the fact is that an awful lot of real-life LEOs are power-mad jerks. Fix that problem, and this law won't be a worry at all -- because you'll be able to rest easy in the knowledge that it will not be applied arbitrarily or capriciously, but only in cases where it's clearly justified... like a naturalized citizen who turns out to be an enemy sleeper agent.
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