tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post1047685178108339436..comments2024-03-28T16:31:54.494-04:00Comments on Borepatch: Do America's allies deserve us?Borepatchhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05029434172945099693noreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-51647542284138157522010-03-10T15:13:13.987-05:002010-03-10T15:13:13.987-05:00I lived in England from 2001 to 2003 and I've ...I lived in England from 2001 to 2003 and I've been in Hungary for the last year. Both times I've lived and shopped on the local economy. I managed to develop an insane crush on bacon crips (avoiding the prawn!) and now I've discovered Goulash really is fantastic. And it's soup, go figure. So I'd have to say that I have a leg to stand on when I talk about how the Europeans feel towards us, and I have to say it seems to come down to a major self esteem issue. <br />Think back to high school. Remember that really popular guy that was so popular that he didn't even know he was popular? Everyone loved him? Or, that is, everyone love him except for those that hated him because they couldn't be him. If you know what I'm talking about, then you understand Europe.<br />We actually win wars; we've had a stable economy for generations; we were never invaded by a shortguy that thought he was king of the world. Or by a guy with a funny 'stache that thought he was king of the world.<br />We are that guy, except we know we have it better then everyone else. We move easily through the world, with the devil-may-care attitude that whatever happens it doesn't matter cause we're AMERICAN. We aren't cocky, we are confident and therefore we are offputting to those that can't compete. And I'm not making light, I'm serious.<br />The Europeans have struggled for centuries to gain the stability, prosperity and world power that we've gained over 200 short years. When they see us they are forever reminded of either what they once were and are no longer, or of what they never were and never will be. <br />I drive my PT Cruiser and buy my groceries and somehow I'm showing off. Er... No, that's normal life for us, boring life in fact, yet for them I'm so sort of freak that can't keep my arrogance to myself. <br />In an attempt to make themselves feel better they turn bully, and we are the target. Yes, because we won't fight back. Mostly we don't care to 'cause, really, who cares what Germany thinks. But for the bullies the lack of a fight is all they need to cry out "see, we were right!" And yet, if we fight them we are arrogantly forcing our world views on someone else. <br />Typical bully/victim behaviour.The DOhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00653755693838609653noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-41059501337560083892010-03-10T10:00:02.724-05:002010-03-10T10:00:02.724-05:00Borepatch, thanks for the thoughtful response. Oba...Borepatch, thanks for the thoughtful response. Obama is doing one thing different: he's taking us down the "big government" road even faster. The only good side of this is that he may accidentally go fast enough to shock the sheeple out of their complacency. Well, one can hope...bradley13https://www.blogger.com/profile/17488615075859940032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-26606611265608817192010-03-09T15:30:50.174-05:002010-03-09T15:30:50.174-05:00One more thing, Bradley13 - the British press is a...One more thing, Bradley13 - the British press is actually less anti-American than the continental press. Der Spiegal is horrible, as is Le Monde (to name only two).<br /><br />Le Monde in particular is instructive: that famous "We're All Americans Today" 9/11 story managed to blame America for what happened. Go back and read it.<br /><br />I very much like Europe and especially Europeans, but I think it's important for Americans to stop viewing the continent through rose colored glasses. Until we do, the current dysfunctional conditions will persist.Borepatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05029434172945099693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-34706498090318939862010-03-09T15:27:15.217-05:002010-03-09T15:27:15.217-05:00Bradley13, we lived outside London from September ...Bradley13, we lived outside London from September 1996 through August 1997, and went all over Western Europe on holiday (I've posted some pix of the kids from those days).<br /><br />Even then - during the Clinton years, before GWB - the London Times was unreadable due to its casual, unthinking anti-Americanism. The sneers would drip off the page, as they did on the BBC.<br /><br />While the coastal elites got a pass, the rest of the country was repeatedly condemned as backwards, ignorant, and unsophisticated. Back then, I still saw myself as a member in good standing of the coastal elite, and this <i>still</i> bugged me.<br /><br />GWB took this and turned it up to 11. Quite frankly, I think that Europe went insane during those years.<br /><br />Net/net, I'm not sure I agree with your statement that the criticism was about actions. I think there is a very large under current of class warfare in play, that thinks we should be much more deferential towards european-style cultural elites. All that happened during the GWB years was that the mask slipped.<br /><br />As to the Patriot Act, TSA, and the rest - no argument from me. I do notice that the Obama Administration isn't doing anything differently, though. That's another data point suggesting that this wasn't GWB, but rather a deeper clash.Borepatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05029434172945099693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-14132270206155577322010-03-09T04:33:34.052-05:002010-03-09T04:33:34.052-05:00Well, perhaps you exaggerate just a bit. As an Ame...Well, perhaps you exaggerate just a bit. As an American living in Europe, I don't see the “viscous anti-Americanism that's the daily ration in the European media” that you refer to. Also, please do not confuse the British press with the European press, just because it happens to be in English. Britain is culturally closer to America than it is to the rest of Europe.<br /><br />Regarding criticism: During the years of GW Bush, America got lots of criticism: he was widely regarded as an out-of-control idiot, and his policies deserved all the scorn they received. Others may have a different opinion of him, fair enough. The point is this: criticism is generally directed at actions and policies, not at America in general.<br /><br />I also would like to comment on the “we saved Western Europe from Hitler” stuff. Actually, no, we didn't – maybe our grandfathers did. Most of the people who fought in WWII are now dead, as are most of the civilians they freed. I still have family alive who fought in WWII, and when they visit Europe, they get all the respect their acts deserve. But when an American under the age of 80 says this, it is arrogant and irritating.<br /><br />In reality, many Europeans have always looked up to America as a land of opportunity and freedom. However, in recent times: the irresponsible federal debt (thanks GW Bush, and did Obama really have to double-down?), the lack of personal responsibility (it's not my fault, who can I sue), the destruction of childhood (sexting kids charged with felonies, NCLB, federal nannies, drugging male children into passivity), the abandonment of fundamental American principles (Patriot Act, TSA, warrantless wiretaps, Guantanamo, etc.). Seen from Europe, this is all enormously sad – the beginning of the inevitable, unstoppable fall of a giant. This goes largely unmentioned in the European press, because it is just so bloody depressing, and there is nothing anyone here can do about it.bradley13https://www.blogger.com/profile/17488615075859940032noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-49704339575525244122010-03-08T20:19:02.728-05:002010-03-08T20:19:02.728-05:00War. Big war. Big stomach churning, nasty, pillagi...War. Big war. Big stomach churning, nasty, pillaging, ravaging, terrorizing, decimating war is more often the result of rather than the cause of the collapse of empires.<br /><br />I use empire not as a bad word, but rather as the stabilizing, law-giving force that cause countless peoples to want to be citizens of the Roman Empire, and similarly those who want to be citizens of the US. An empire that is strong enough, and willing enough to keep the barbarians outside the gates.<br /><br />Sure, we could withdraw from the world. Watching them collapse upon themselves like unruly children, knowing that in the end they may have a better appreciation for all that we've done for them.<br /><br />But the real question is: could we really sit back and watch the slaughter that ensues? Could we do that morally? <br /><br />Even be selfish, a worldwide collapse would not fail to hurt us economically. <br /><br />Word Verification: amegrate - Wow, how weird. <br /><br />Amegrate - one who is ungrateful for aid and comfort given by America for the last 70 years.GuardDuckhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08622236339096746029noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-87291703500562121792010-03-08T20:13:27.933-05:002010-03-08T20:13:27.933-05:00Our only reliable allies over the years have been ...Our only reliable allies over the years have been the Commonwealth nations and Israel. Other than that, it's erratic at best. <br /><br />President Feckless has been weak in his support of Israel and has gone out of his way to insult the British. <br /><br />The rest of the world, the nations whose collective butts he kisses, continue to hate us and now have the added enjoyment of laughing at him and at "us" for electing him. <br /><br />The liberals say that G.W. Bush is a village idiot. Obama isn't even that good.TOTWTYTRhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17221321904364051792noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-17570113263224734402010-03-08T17:53:43.518-05:002010-03-08T17:53:43.518-05:00Timmeehh, you're spot on. I'd add the fol...Timmeehh, you're spot on. I'd add the following to the club: BBC, (Australian) ABC, and France 2.<br /><br />If the American people had any idea of what passes for normal fare on these (government run) stations, it would be the end of NATO.Borepatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05029434172945099693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-42110990118479777132010-03-08T17:23:15.955-05:002010-03-08T17:23:15.955-05:00You want to see anti-Americanism? Just watch the ...You want to see anti-Americanism? Just watch the CBC, whether it's news or comedy they always find a way to bash America, with our tax dollars footing the bill.<br /><br />Just another reason I only watch movies on TV now.Timmeehhhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10473249796933057572noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-74265399197986864382010-03-08T13:23:11.333-05:002010-03-08T13:23:11.333-05:00Yeah, but that's what I wonder about. Would l...Yeah, but that's what I wonder about. Would letting the world go up in smoke for a while be good for them? Or is it just better for everyone if we just act the scapegoat?bluesunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995973825892791271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-83097503927236546132010-03-08T11:57:09.661-05:002010-03-08T11:57:09.661-05:00Bob, I'm starting to think you may be right. ...Bob, I'm starting to think you may be right. I didn't used to, but sometimes it seems that the rest of the world needs to grow up.<br /><br />Bluesun, we do know what would happen to the rest of the world - it would go to Hell. See what happened in Bosnia.<br /><br />WoFat, me too. I liked those trips, and worked really hard NOT to be an Ugly American. On an individual level, I think that works. The problem is that the macro level incentive structure doesn't punish anti-Americanism, so there's no reason for restraint.Borepatchhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05029434172945099693noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-11832766308419568332010-03-08T10:07:56.992-05:002010-03-08T10:07:56.992-05:00Some years back, I spent a lot of time going to co...Some years back, I spent a lot of time going to countries we supported - whose inhabitants hated us.<br /><br />I recommend people resurrect the novel "The Ugly American."WoFathttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07616237986583760584noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-6786297030774050342010-03-08T09:48:13.934-05:002010-03-08T09:48:13.934-05:00Well, pulling out completely would certainly take ...Well, pulling out completely would certainly take some wind out of their sails, but I don't know what would happen to the stability of the world. I also don't know if a bit of a shaking up would be a bad thing. The trick would be not getting involved for a long enough time. <br /><br />Does the world need a scapegoat that they can take out their frustrations on relatively peacefully? Does it have to be us?bluesunhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11995973825892791271noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6322916946732811685.post-16444497073595979422010-03-08T09:10:02.130-05:002010-03-08T09:10:02.130-05:00Will Rogers, after a tour of the world in 1934 or ...Will Rogers, after a tour of the world in 1934 or so (not long before his tragic death) said that the only way that the Europeans could hate us more was if we were to save them in another war. Quite prophetic, looking back on it. Personally I think we need a long period of isolationism, with our bases withdrawn worldwide and foreign aid ended, so that we can more easily fund projects at home.Bobhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11402651457453813639noreply@blogger.com