I got through half of it. The only thing worse than the tragedy itself are the legions of finger pointers, mouth breathers, and nose pickers that will try to use this accident to draw attention to themselves. 18 months? To investigate that??? Hrrrmmmm. Let’s break that down, shall we? It was almost certainly a case of pilot or ATC error. IF there was a mechanical/performance issue…both planes are of types that are no longer made, nor do they fly except for very special occasions. It was an ACCIDENT.
Hell’s bells. I’ll bet all those guys have thousands of flight hours. The ex-military guys may have tens of thousands of hours. Pick up what’s left of your heritage, bury the bodies and mourn. At this point, only the ghouls and a-holes will be involved from here on out as they dance and caper for your attention.
Prayers for the families. Glen, the level of detail and reconstruction is what takes so long. I worked this accident (NTSB # LAX90FA336) in 1990 until the LA team could get onstation, about 20 hours later. The report wasn't issued until April 1993! And there was video, charts that I did of the wreckage, and charted locations of the human remains recovered. The sad part of that one was the seven other people that died and nobody knew who they were at the time, as the pilot didn't file any passengers on the airplane... And I live with what I saw in those 20 hours for the rest of my life.
I sat next to a navy man almost 40 years who was one of the first to respond at Teneriffe. He told me in no uncertain terms to never go near a plane crash. The memories will haunt you forever. Words I plan to live by. I agree with Glen in that there is little to learn about the cause of the crash since it appears obvious. There is no mystery there beyond how the two aircraft merged at the same altitude over the field. In my line of work we briefed the plan and then did our best to stick to the plan as briefed. I don't know if that's how airshows are run but one presumes there is a lot of coordination involved when you have that many planes aloft over a limited area.
Not to slag you or your work, NFO. I realize that with most of these things, you HAVE to go through the wreck, bolt by bolt, body by body and match up parts and do all the grim and grisly things that have to be done.
What drives me bonkers is the priority that stupid people and morons put on these things in order to point fingers and assign blame. Somebody MUST be punished!!!
This is just me flapping my gums, but... after your million dollar 18 month investigation, I suspect that you will find that this midair collision happened because one or both aircraft were in airspace that they shouldn't have been. That means either ATC or pilot error.
I am betting that they will find out that somebody screwed up. That 'somebody' will *probably* be an aviation professional, much like yourself... that had a blonde or senior's moment and screwed up. The baying mobs will have their bad guy, the usual sanctimonious morons will nail him to the cross, hoist him up, and taunt him as he dies. And at the end of the day, all those people are still dead, two irreplaceable vintage aircraft are gone, and the whole thing blows over until next time.
It's all so bloody tiresome. It was an accident - what good will a long, expensive 18 month investigation do in this case?
Investigation will identify any preventable error as a cause, including mechanical, planning, or execution errors, using a system that, scrupulously followed, has achieved zero passenger fatalities for years on end, by following and learning from exactly that system.
Other than that wee benefit, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Ok, I have had the great ungood fortune to be a party to an NTSB investigation that involved 13 fatalities. This was a vehicular accident of dually truck hitting small bus full of octogenarian church goers. 14 months later a report is issued that blames my company for not forcing the bus buyer to take full 3 point seatbelt seats. They don't really mention the fact that FMVSS rules don't require anybelts on this size bus. 20 years ago we decided to only ship our seats with 2 point belts as standard. The seats are designed and tested to the FMVSS seatbelt standards. If the bus manufacturer takes the belts off we can't stop them. I mention all this so that the real cause of the fatalities lies with the law makers who spec belts for below 10,000 lbs GVW and above 26,000 Lbs GVW. In between GVW's belts are not required. The thing is that the closing speed of 135mph and the dually driver on drugs is what killed all those people. Belts would not have helped.
The NTSB were very professional about the whole thing up until they stuffed their agenda up our keister. BTW, I have been issued US Patents on 3pt seats for buses, they exist but until the Gov mandates it, it will be up to the builder and buyer to spec what they want.
Have become addicted to a youtube channel called "Mentour Pilot". A pilot goes over an accident and then explains what appears to have happened THEN he explains how the findings have resulted in improvements to safety. Doesn't take much for everything to go to hell.
The .gov's accident investigation departments lost credibility when they announced that TWA 800 blew up due to sensor wiring in a kerosene fuel tank. Too much of their findings seem to be agenda driven. That constitutes junk science.
The warbird midair seems to be a case of poor airflight directions by the CAF, compounded by stuffing too many aircraft with varying performance parameters into too small a space. What attracts spectators is seeing them fly, and hearing the specific aircraft as it goes by. Cramming so many different planes into one overhead space just makes it sound too much like noise instead. It appears the CAF have lost track of what is appealing.
I got through half of it. The only thing worse than the tragedy itself are the legions of finger pointers, mouth breathers, and nose pickers that will try to use this accident to draw attention to themselves. 18 months? To investigate that??? Hrrrmmmm. Let’s break that down, shall we? It was almost certainly a case of pilot or ATC error. IF there was a mechanical/performance issue…both planes are of types that are no longer made, nor do they fly except for very special occasions. It was an ACCIDENT.
ReplyDeleteHell’s bells. I’ll bet all those guys have thousands of flight hours. The ex-military guys may have tens of thousands of hours. Pick up what’s left of your heritage, bury the bodies and mourn. At this point, only the ghouls and a-holes will be involved from here on out as they dance and caper for your attention.
I flew on that B-17 when it was here in Bowling Green this June. The crew and ground support were professional and friendly.
ReplyDeleteMy sympathy and prayers to the families of both aircraft.
Prayers for the families. Glen, the level of detail and reconstruction is what takes so long. I worked this accident (NTSB # LAX90FA336) in 1990 until the LA team could get onstation, about 20 hours later. The report wasn't issued until April 1993! And there was video, charts that I did of the wreckage, and charted locations of the human remains recovered. The sad part of that one was the seven other people that died and nobody knew who they were at the time, as the pilot didn't file any passengers on the airplane... And I live with what I saw in those 20 hours for the rest of my life.
ReplyDeleteI sat next to a navy man almost 40 years who was one of the first to respond at Teneriffe. He told me in no uncertain terms to never go near a plane crash. The memories will haunt you forever. Words I plan to live by. I agree with Glen in that there is little to learn about the cause of the crash since it appears obvious. There is no mystery there beyond how the two aircraft merged at the same altitude over the field. In my line of work we briefed the plan and then did our best to stick to the plan as briefed. I don't know if that's how airshows are run but one presumes there is a lot of coordination involved when you have that many planes aloft over a limited area.
ReplyDeleteNot to slag you or your work, NFO. I realize that with most of these things, you HAVE to go through the wreck, bolt by bolt, body by body and match up parts and do all the grim and grisly things that have to be done.
ReplyDeleteWhat drives me bonkers is the priority that stupid people and morons put on these things in order to point fingers and assign blame. Somebody MUST be punished!!!
This is just me flapping my gums, but... after your million dollar 18 month investigation, I suspect that you will find that this midair collision happened because one or both aircraft were in airspace that they shouldn't have been. That means either ATC or pilot error.
I am betting that they will find out that somebody screwed up. That 'somebody' will *probably* be an aviation professional, much like yourself... that had a blonde or senior's moment and screwed up. The baying mobs will have their bad guy, the usual sanctimonious morons will nail him to the cross, hoist him up, and taunt him as he dies. And at the end of the day, all those people are still dead, two irreplaceable vintage aircraft are gone, and the whole thing blows over until next time.
It's all so bloody tiresome. It was an accident - what good will a long, expensive 18 month investigation do in this case?
Investigation will identify any preventable error as a cause, including mechanical, planning, or execution errors, using a system that, scrupulously followed, has achieved zero passenger fatalities for years on end, by following and learning from exactly that system.
ReplyDeleteOther than that wee benefit, what have the Romans ever done for us?
Some people's perspicacity never changes.
Ok, I have had the great ungood fortune to be a party to an NTSB investigation that involved 13 fatalities. This was a vehicular accident of dually truck hitting small bus full of octogenarian church goers. 14 months later a report is issued that blames my company for not forcing the bus buyer to take full 3 point seatbelt seats. They don't really mention the fact that FMVSS rules don't require anybelts on this size bus. 20 years ago we decided to only ship our seats with 2 point belts as standard. The seats are designed and tested to the FMVSS seatbelt standards. If the bus manufacturer takes the belts off we can't stop them. I mention all this so that the real cause of the fatalities lies with the law makers who spec belts for below 10,000 lbs GVW and above 26,000 Lbs GVW. In between GVW's belts are not required. The thing is that the closing speed of 135mph and the dually driver on drugs is what killed all those people. Belts would not have helped.
ReplyDeleteThe NTSB were very professional about the whole thing up until they stuffed their agenda up our keister. BTW, I have been issued US Patents on 3pt seats for buses, they exist but until the Gov mandates it, it will be up to the builder and buyer to spec what they want.
Spin
Have become addicted to a youtube channel called "Mentour Pilot". A pilot goes over an accident and then explains what appears to have happened THEN he explains how the findings have resulted in improvements to safety. Doesn't take much for everything to go to hell.
ReplyDeleteThe .gov's accident investigation departments lost credibility when they announced that TWA 800 blew up due to sensor wiring in a kerosene fuel tank. Too much of their findings seem to be agenda driven. That constitutes junk science.
ReplyDeleteThe warbird midair seems to be a case of poor airflight directions by the CAF, compounded by stuffing too many aircraft with varying performance parameters into too small a space.
What attracts spectators is seeing them fly, and hearing the specific aircraft as it goes by. Cramming so many different planes into one overhead space just makes it sound too much like noise instead. It appears the CAF have lost track of what is appealing.